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Only Catholics are True Christians

Newspaper current event by VnutZ on 10 July 2007, tagged as theology

In a document released by the Vatican, sects of Christianity that are not Roman Catholic were snubbed as a "wound." First proposed by Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 when he was still a cardinal, the Dominus Iesus was ill accepted. Now directing as Pope, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued the decree which affirms Roman Catholics as true followers with orthodox churches as true but flawed for not recognizing the papacy. The remaining branches of Christianity were rolled into the statement, "Despite the fact that this teaching has created no little distress ... it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to them."

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Clarification by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 11 July 2007

The linked article actually refers to only the Orthodox Churches as "suffer[ing] from a wound", not as being a wound themselves. This "woundedness" was given in the context of still being a full church of Jesus Christ, while other denominations are not considered full churches.

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Modern Excommunication by VnutZ :: NR8 :: on 11 July 2007

This sounds like a modern twist on the medieval practice of excommunication for deviating from the word of the Vatican.

Just curious - for all OmniNerds present that have faith yet are not Roman Catholic ... how does the Pope's stance sit with you?

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RE: Modern Excommunication by ldsudduth :: NR7 :: on 11 July 2007

Well..as a 'recovering Catholic', I think he's wrong. John Paul did so much to try to heal the 'rift' between the Catholic Church and Protestant denominations and now Benedict is trying to drive a deeper wedge. However...he is known for being quite the hardliner--hence the voluntary return to the Latin Vulgate. Biblically speaking, there is only one True Church--and all believers belong to that church. Denominations are purely a construct of man. Anyone who takes up their cross and follows Christ is a Christian.

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RE: Modern Excommunication by Brandon :: NR9 :: on 11 July 2007

It makes sense to me, given the Pope's beliefs. If the Pope considers the Roman Catholic church to be the only continuation of the church Christ established, how could he think otherwise?

Also, in general, I have a difficult time seeing why people care so much about being excommunicated from a church which they don't support and in which they don't believe. Of course the Pope would excommunicate someone who lived, for example, as I do. I never attend mass. I don't accept the creeds or the authority of the Vatican. I believe in the Book of Mormon. I don't believe in transubstantiation, infant baptism, the traditional Trinity, etc. Why would I care if I was officially made "not Roman Catholic" given my life and beliefs are very much opposed to for what the Roman Catholic church stands?

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RE: Modern Excommunication by gnifyus :: NR7 :: on 11 July 2007

I have a difficult time seeing why people care so much about being excommunicated from a church which they don't support..

It's like someone sending a you a letter that you've been kicked out of a country club in another state that you never belonged to in the first place.

The only issue here as I see it, is that they are formally declaring a divide, and even an official disdain toward other denominations, which at worst only lessens any general goodwill that may have been found between the denominations.

I don't see this as having any effect in my town, where the Catholic church and the Protestant church are across the street from one another.

(Unless you count us standing on the roof shooting those 12 inch bottle rockets over Main St. at the Catholics as they exit mass.. :-D )

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RE: Modern Excommunication by scottb :: NR7 :: on 11 July 2007

Though I'm (as we all know by now) not in the group you identified, I thought I'd throw in a comment.

I think the reactions many people are having to the Pope's statement are indicative of how poorly Americans understand religion. The Pope's statement isn't really anything new - he insists (quite correctly) that he's not doing anything more than clarifying some things that the Vatican II meeting left ambiguous. He's clearly enunciated the core position that the RCC has always had with respect to other branches of Christianity.

Those who haven't read Stephen Prothero's Religious Literacy might find it worthwhile. He makes some very strong points along these lines.

Originally, "education" in America was pretty much equivalent to religious education. Most people learned to read by reading the Bible (shudder - this despite its obvious unsuitability for children). Sunday sermons were published in local newspapers and they were common topics of discussion. The earliest universities were divinity schools - Harvard, William and Mary, Yale.

The early reading primers all doubled as vehicles for religious indoctrination. Instead of the modern, "A is for Apple, B is for Book, ...", the very influential New England Primer starts:

A: In Adam's Fall / We sinned all.

B: Heaven to find; / The Bible Mind.

C: Christ crucify'd / For sinners dy'd.

As a result, literacy rates in the US skyrocketed to levels unparalleled in Europe. John Adams wrote, "a Native of America, especially of New England, who cannot read and wright is a rare a Phenomenon as a Comet." Historian David Paul Nord wrote of seventeenth- and eighteenth-century New England as "perhaps the most literate place on earth. There is scarcely an adult individual in all New England who cannot read, and write, and keep accounts."

Moreover, included in this knowledge was the basic theology of their religion. Those published sermons weren't today's personal anecdotes, they were very often intellectual and theological arguments, which the churchgoers were expected to understand. There would have been very few Catholics who couldn't articulate precisely the concepts that the Pope has in Dominus Iesus. And there would have been very few Protestants who couldn't articulate the corresponding Protestant doctrines that served as counter-arguments.

Then came the period that historians call the Second Great Awakening - the origin of the tent revival meeting. This was the beginning of the nineteenth century, and it's largely responsible for the modern face of religion in America.

There was a deep shift in the way Americans perceived religion. Instead of sound theological doctrine, they were encouraged to substitute pure emotionalism. As an example, one of the foundations of Protestant Reformation was Luther's sola scriptura - that the Bible is the sole authority on Christian doctrine. It was nearly a slogan among Protestants - a mantra for the movement. During the revivalist period, it was pretty much replaced with sola Jesus, and a focus on a "personal relationship with Jesus".

Sermons shifted in the same way. The rector at Boston's Trinity Church - the most influential Episcopalian preacher of the nineteenth century, Phillips Brooks - encouraged preachers to talk about their own experiences, and to focus on Christ, rather than doctrine. He wrote, "Beware of the tendency to preach about Christianity, and try to preach about Christ" in a popular homiletics manual. As Prothero notes, "The trouble with this approach, of course, is that it makes church teachings about Jesus optional, and wherever church teachings are optional there is the temptation to forget about them altogether."

This led to the shift from theology to morality as the central element of Christian belief, for most American Christians. There was a strong feedback between the sola Jesus idea, the rise of non-denominationalism, and the success of modern science. Protestant groups sought to work together "to Christianize the nation and vanquish the Catholic menace", and needed a basis for that cooperation. But doctrine would be a complete non-starter - there were too many issues on which they disagreed. But basic morality was a common ground. They focused on the common ground and lost their doctrine.

Doctrine was also a casualty of the rise of modern science. As scientists found more and more evidence of errors in scripture, sola scriptura became less and less credible.

This led to a strong anti-intellectual movement in the revivalist period preachers. Instead of preaching doctrine, these people were basically charismatic storytellers, and had very little respect for theology. Dwight Moody once said, "My theology! I didn't know I had any." And on another occasion, "An educated rascal is the meanest kind of rascal." Sam Jones claimed, "If I had a creed, I would sell it to a museum."

So the result of all this was the rise of ecumenicalism - bland, empty moralizing devoid of any noticeable theological content. Megachurches that provide a sense of community, but no sense of deity. People who think of themselves just as "Christians", rather than Baptist, Episcopal, Catholic, or whatever.

You'll also notice that a common feature of the various splinter churches that formed as a reaction to the revivalist period is that they've got a much stronger focus on doctrine than mainstream churches have. These are mostly "restorationist" churches that believe that Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches fell away from the "true path" at some point in their history, and believe that they're bringing back the "original" Christian belief. The Campbellites, Christadelphians, Millerites, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Mormons all have their roots in the restorationist movement.

Personally, I find it amusing that the very effort to widen the spread of Christianity in America is largely responsible for its having been so undermined that today, the average self-described Christian knows almost nothing about Christianity.

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RE: Modern Excommunication by gheorghe :: NR5 :: on 11 July 2007

If you only drink Starbucks and think this is the best coffee in the world, this hardly makes you a coffee connoisseur. It only testifies to the success of Starbucks marketing department. If you are a consumer of religion in the United States, you are just another happy customer of a particular brand of religion [insert yours here].

Coming from more secular Europe and one-religion state (Romania), I was amused at the aggressive attempts made by various religious brands in the United States to lure me in with cookies, milk (not kidding, some people know what I am talking about), concerts, music, eternal salvation, etc.

Therefore, I am not surprised the Americans you refer to are not experts in the origin of religions, because any rigurous student will start probably asking questions: why Starbucks and not Caribou or Nescafe, etc? Not likely to be encouraged by the brand managers.

Now, to the Papal "controversy." Come on, of course every religious leader out there will tell you pretty much theirs is the one and only "true" religion. So if you are shopping for Christianity, you might as well go for the "original" church. Or you could go for the modern, the reformed, whatever satisfies your taste as a consumer.

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RE: Modern Excommunication by VnutZ :: NR8 :: on 11 July 2007

Now, to the Papal "controversy." Come on, of course every religious leader out there will tell you pretty much theirs is the one and only "true" religion.

A good point indeed. Need we look any further than the division in Islam regarding the caliph (and even regarding the prophet himself). And now Catholicism reminds the contemporary world they are no different - except that they don't bomb Mormons or Protestants, etc. At least not frequently enough for it to seem like the status quo.

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RE: Modern Excommunication by scottb :: NR7 :: on 11 July 2007

And now Catholicism reminds the contemporary world they are no different - except that they don't bomb Mormons or Protestants, etc. At least not frequently enough for it to seem like the status quo.

Don't be so sure of that. Here in the US and in Western Europe that's usually true, but it's not been all that long (a mere ten years) since the Bosnian War. That was a three-sided conflict where the sides were directly associated with religion.

In most of the reporting we heard, it was about the "Croats", and the "Serbs", and the "Muslims", as the three sides. But what specifically distinguished the "Croats" from the "Serbs" was religion. The Croats were Catholic, while the Serbs were Orthodox. The analogous term to "Croat" and "Serb" for the Muslim group is "Bosniak", but it was rarely heard.

Christopher Hitchens wrote that, "a secular Croatian intellectual once gave me a warning that ... took the form of a sour joke. 'If I tell people that I am an atheist and a Croat,' he said, 'people ask me how I can prove I am not a Serb.' To be Croatian, in other words, is to be Roman Catholic. To be a Serb is to be Christian Orthodox."

The basic summary of that war is that the two Christian groups divided the country between them and then sought to commit genocide against the Muslim population.

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RE: Modern Excommunication by gnifyus :: NR7 :: on 11 July 2007

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RE: Modern Excommunication by scottb :: NR7 :: on 11 July 2007

ThinkGeek.com actually has Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch plush toys for sale. Plus Killer Rabbit slippers.

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RE: Modern Excommunication by MasterEd :: NR3 :: on 15 July 2007

Not amusing, scary. I am a teacher and students try to speak about Christianity and they do not even know the basics (in any religion or sect). I find that the knowledge acquired by students is misleading and incorrect which correlates to a sad situation regarding Christianity and other religions and how young adults understand. Example: Multiple students have claimed to be Christians, but they said that Baptists or Cathlolics and so on are not Christian. Sad.

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RE: Modern Excommunication by scottb :: NR7 :: on 15 July 2007

Not amusing, scary.

The prevalence of those who claim to believe, but who know almost nothing about the claimed religion is a little scary.

I find it amusing that they brought it on themselves.

I am a teacher and students try to speak about Christianity and they do not even know the basics (in any religion or sect). I find that the knowledge acquired by students is misleading and incorrect which correlates to a sad situation regarding Christianity and other religions and how young adults understand.

Well, in a nutshell, you've outlined the thesis of Prothero's book.

He proposes that it be remedied by introducing two religion-related classes to the public high school curriculum.

First, a "Bible 101" course in which the students read all of Genesis, Mark, and one of the Pauline epistles, with the primary goal of familiarizing the students with the book itself: key phrases, stories, and characters.

Second, a "World Religion 101" course in which the students encounter a wider range of world scripture - "the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, ... how the Jain ideal of ahimsa inspired Ghandi's program of non-violent direct action, how the Protestant Reformation changed the face of Europe, and what the US Supreme Court has said about the religious rights of Native Americans."

The course would cover the seven major religious traditions: Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, studying the founders, reading portions of the scriptures, and understanding the role of the scriptures in context.

The greater emphasis is placed on the Bible and Christianity because, as religions go, Christianity has had far and away the most significant effect on US history and culture. It's not emphasized because Christianity is the majority - both the emphasis and the fact of the Christian majority are rooted in the same cause. So arguments that other religions should be given "equal time" are counter to the whole point of the effort. American students learn lots more American history than British or Chinese history for the same reason.

None of this is unconstitutional - the Supreme Court has ruled that teaching about religion is fine, so long as you don't proselytize. That can be a very fine line, so there'd certainly need to be some kind of training and certification of teachers to prepare them to teach the courses properly.

Now, personally, I think religious "faith" is a social disease, not a goal. I want to see less of it in society, not more. But I also recognize that religion is a very powerful force in the world. Leaving people ignorant of religion is no better than leaving them ignorant of history. It's difficult to even understand history without understanding how religion is involved. I would favor introducing courses like this into the curriculum.

Nor am I particularly concerned that it would cause an upward trend in religious belief. Those who don't believe aren't likely to be converted by exposure to the scriptures. This can really only affect the "ignorant believers" - those who say they believe, but know almost nothing about their religion. Some of them may be led to a more knowledgeable belief, but I have confidence in my fellow Americans - more of them will realize, "Oh. Well, no, of course I don't believe that."

Multiple students have claimed to be Christians, but they said that Baptists or Cathlolics and so on are not Christian. Sad.

Well, it certainly doesn't help that the various churches have actually said those kinds of things in the past. In the rhetoric of the Protestant Reformation, it wasn't unusual for the Catholics to condemn the Protestants as "atheists" because they didn't venerate the virgin or the saints.

And it doesn't really stop today. People like Michael Bray believe in all of the major elements of Christianity. Theologically, I'm certain he's quite an orthodox Lutheran. That I can tell, he has just one somewhat unorthodox interpretation of those beliefs. He believes that doctors who practice abortion (along with their staff) are committing murder against innocents and that if the law won't protect these innocents, he is ethically bound to do so - to include the murder of practitioners and the bombing of clinics. He's known as the "preacher of the Army of God", an American Christian terrorist organization.

Ask most American Christians - let's forget the ignorant majority, and ask the relatively educated faithful - and they'll explain how this guy "really isn't a Christian".

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Opiate of the Masses by MasterEd :: NR3 :: on 15 July 2007

Luther did justice in 1516. Christianity is through Jesus not the Church. Without Protestantism, society would still be in the dark ages. The mere consideration of relying on a Pope is laughable and ridiculous.

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RE: Opiate of the Masses by romanizzo :: NR6 :: on 15 July 2007

Well thats a well-formed and fact-supported argument you make there, utterly devoid of opinion or bias. Wait ... nevermind.

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RE: Opiate of the Masses by Eye.Of.Sage :: NR6 :: on 15 July 2007

That's a good point I'm sure. But since Jesus isn't here on Earth anymore, the only contact with God will be through the Church. Although you probably could talk to God when you pray alone.

Say, quite an ironic title you got there, supporting the idea of God while quoting from Karl Marx.