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RE: Impact of Obama

Comment a comment by Stig, published on 21 November 2009
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Thank you for that heartfelt response.

Yes Dwayne, I think you are a an enlightened moderate, and I mean that in the nicest possible way. You are certainly not a libertarian, which has undertones of licentiousness.

The problem with being a fiscal conservative is that all worthwhile change costs money and nothing would happen if we all took that view.

May I suggest that you read Thomas Frank’s book What’s the matter with Kansas Its a lilttle old now, but still highly relevant to how you feel.

The selfish attitude of the workers you describe used to be the norm and still is in many parts of the world. You need to have a little capital and be an employer or share holder to see things the way you do. The worker feels that he is entitled to a fair deal from his employer in return for his hard work. He gets no share of the profits of his employer and has no share in decision making, so he feels no responsibility for how well his company is doing. He is simply a factor of production which must be properly paid for.

Thankfully, this attitude has broken down here in recent years as workers have come to understand that if their employer goes down they will be much worse off themselves, so they are willing to make sacrifices in their entitlements to help their employer – well perhaps most are. But we don’t expect the person supplying raw steel to the plant to take less for his product, and the worker is selling a product too.

If we expect our employees to share in the risk of running a business then they should also share in the decision making and the profits.

That book demonstrates well how workers being willing to take hits for the good of their country and company has actually damaged both terribly. They have been conditioned to accept the de-industrialisation of America and the closing down of huge numbers of farms because they are nonviable and cannot compete, because workers get too much in this country.

Remember that red and blue map during the election. Everyone noted how red it was in the centre with just tiny patches of blue in the snotty, liberal, blueblood, bookish north east and the decadent far west. Most of that red is in counties that used to be strongly liberal. The mid west and great plains areas. They gave the country socialists like Eugene Debs, progressives like La Follette and unionists like Walter Reuther. They spawned the UAW and IWW who convulsed the country in often bloody industrial disputes. Radical farmers organizations like the militant Farmer’s alliance or Farm Labor Party or the Non-Partisan League enlisted farmers in radical protests. The NAACP even ran its seminal desegregation case, Brown v. Board of Education, on friendly home ground in Topeka. Almost all these organizations no longer exist.

I think that is bad. No one wants the conflict of aggressive radicalism, but it indicates to me that these were proud hard working Americans who thought they were worth something and were prepared to fight for it. A country like that has a competitive advantage. Today they are all just willing to suffer for the common good and watch all that was achieved in the past flow down the drain.

When conservatives are running for office they do it on emotional things like gun control, abortion, gay rights, family values etc. They make resounding speeches against these things and appeal to good, honest but simple folk, who believe that we need reforms in these areas and that these guys will give it to them. But the great dream of the political conservative professionals is to get a popular workers movement that will roll back all the “socialist” gains that have been won for workers over the last century and so make business more profitable. They also want to get rid of all that pesky regulation that has crept in to try to overcome market failure by forcing fair competition and consumer benefits. So the conservative voter never gets protection of babies from abortion, more liberal gun laws, etc, but he gets banking and stock market de-regulation and a lower basic wage, and fewer social security benefits — all at the time when he is starting to need those things because his income and quality of life is slipping and unemployment is looming.

I am to become a grandfather for the first time in February so I share your excitement about your new arrival: warmest congratulations. I am more optimistic about the future of this country. We do have the collective smarts to get ourselves out of the situation we have put ourselves in, but it is going to require faith in ourselves, and some radical politicians who will need to spend a lot of our tax dollars doing it. We need to be brave.

That Russian is just indulging in wishful thinking. I have heard those claims often in Eastern Europe since 1989 and I have argued with the people making them. They are envious of us, and want us to fail. The Third world war is over. It took place, fittingly, in the Third World with most of the fighting done by proxy, and it was won (as usual) by the strength of the American economy, not by our military or moral superiority.

Our opponents hate us for this. Perhaps they got their hopes up when we elected an obviously stupid person as president who seemed to be fulfilling their dreams, breaking the country, and accelerating its demise. We are dragging ourselves out of that mess and it is vital to support the leaders who we feel are taking us in the new direction. This is why I defend Obama on ON.

My prediction is that Europe will become stronger, but an even more powerful economic block will form in eastern and southern Asia. When China, India, Japan, Indonesia, and Vietnam get into their economic stride the US economy will look like nothing more than a market for their exports. America will soon not have the strongest economy or the most powerful military, but it will still be prosperous and able to defend itself.

Personally, I would welcome closer ties with Europe and that may well be a response to the Asian Development. The Canadians and Australians will go that way before us because they are already closer. I am talking about economic union and not federation. The Europeans have had more time than us to adjust to the loss of their empires and see themselves as they really are. We need to become like that too.

America might even be a better place to live and watch our grandchildren grow up.

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RE: Impact of Obama by Anonymous :: NR0

I think you forgot to log out of Stig….

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RE: Impact of Obama by ldsudduth :: NR6

The problem with being a fiscal conservative is that all worthwhile change costs money and nothing would happen if we all took that view.

I am a fiscal conservative in the sense that wasteful, “knee jerk” monetary spending programs should never take place.

For example, from a personal experience. My college Sociology Professor received a $100,000 grant from the US Government back in the 1980’s for a study. That study? To determine if ‘Blonds Really Do Have More Fun’. He used that in his classes (He had heavy Socialist almost bordering on Communist leanings) to show the failure of democracy. A class I subsequently failed because my final paper was written in support of Reagan’s policies. A class I also appealed my final paper grade of ‘F’ on because the professor used his own ‘personal’ bias as the measuring stick for grades. His was the second class I took where that happened, and was the impetus for my actually quitting university. I felt I could do better (and did) at a Technical School. My "liberal Arts’ education consisted of Technical Writing. It’s also one of the reasons why I have such a strong bias toward funding that segment of the education system. I did run out of monies, but not before I had mostly completed the necessary classes toward a degree in Electrical Engineering Technology and was already working in the field.

Recent issues: The bailouts of GM, Chrysler, and the financial markets that came without pre-conditions. Wasteful in my opinion. Necessary? Probably, but we could have made them with some ‘clean-up’ in mind. Also, the monies should have been directed outward at the economy. The Bush ‘rebate’ that have made my wife and I actually OWE taxes for the first time ever, to the tune of nearly $1200. Calculating without that rebate, showed a net refund of $800. Interesting that we would owe nearly exactly what we were given. Obama’s ‘tax cuts’ might also end up causing us to owe next year.

Other recent issues: ‘Cash for Clunkers’…doesn’t solve the problem because a majority of the people who are driving the older cars that use more gasoline, do so because they can’t afford anything better. ‘American Reinvestment and Recovery Act’—the majority of those funds are going into road repair, or to help ‘prop up’ states with budget shortfalls—neither or which creates sustainable economic growth.

Perhaps I should tout myself as ‘fiscally responsible’ politically, rather than ‘fiscal conservative’.

Of course, on politcal tests, the ‘fiscal responsible’ doesn’t exist.

We do have the collective smarts to get ourselves out of the situation we have put ourselves in, but it is going to require faith in ourselves, and some radical politicians who will need to spend a lot of our tax dollars doing it. We need to be brave.

The problem with that comment is that the ‘sheeple’ have bought into what the snake oil salesmen are selling them. The Bill of Goods that Reid, Pelosi, Franks and the other extremely liberal people in Congress are selling America has a very large future payment looming. But We the People have been spoonfed for years at the Government soup kitchen that they truly believe that the Government will care for them forever. This began with ‘The New Deal’ and was extensively hyped up with ‘The Great Society’. Nothing epitomizes this more than the Peggy Joseph sound bite where she seems to believe that Obama is going to pay for gas in her car and her Mortgage.

I’m actually quite pleased to see Obama’s approval ratings dropping dramatically. What I see is that, at the time of the 2008 election, we were a nation in turmoil (just like 1976) and we elected one who we thought would pull out of the muck; just like Jimmy Carter in 1976. Carter lasted one term and while his foreign policies were, for the most part, extremely terrific (and I still applaud him for his willingness to negotiate for peace where he could), it was his domestic policies that sent us into the worst recession (then) since the Depression.

Do I believe the American people have the intelligence and dogged determination to pull us out of this muck? I do, but I fear that our will to exercise it may well have been sapped.

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RE: Impact of Obama by scottb :: NR7

May I suggest that you read Thomas Frank’s book What’s the matter with Kansas

May I suggest you go back and re-read it? It sounds like you read something else entirely.

The worker feels [that] he is simply a factor of production which must be properly paid for.

I don’t think that is or was the general feeling. The error in ldsudduth’s take on worker attitudes is not in mistaking what they feel—he’s right: workers feel entitled to things like benefit packages. His error is in thinking those feelings are wrong.

I am entitled to the benefits package my employer provides. It’s a part of my compensation for the work I do. When I signed on, the whole package—medical insurance, vacation and holiday schedule, even the more extravagant perqs like a company car—are part of the offer.

I rolled my eyes when he called himself a libertarian, too. The libertarian ideals—even the right-leaning pro-business sort—recognize that workers are market players, too, and a properly functioning free market means they get fair compensation for their efforts. Ldsudduth’s view is right in line with the conservative who thinks, “you’re lucky we even pay you animals.”

That book demonstrates well how workers being willing to take hits for the good of their country and company has actually damaged both terribly.

Must’ve been some other book. Frank’s book outlines how Republican political operatives pulled a massive “bait-and-switch” con on the middle class. It has no suggestion of it being due to “workers being willing to take hits for the good of their country and company”. It was all about creating an illusory association between liberals and decadence—one, by the way, that ldsudduth appears to quite firmly believe, from other conversations.

No one wants the conflict of aggressive radicalism

I’d much rather see a worker’s strike than an anti-abortion protest. Irate workers vandalizing a building is better than religious zealots murdering doctors.

Today they are all just willing to suffer for the common good and watch all that was achieved in the past flow down the drain.

Not at all—they’re not “willing” to suffer, they tell themselves that their suffering is caused by the liberal government.

For me, that’s the thing that finally pushed me away from thinking of myself as a moderate or a libertarian. Both groups, along with conservatives (since they’re often only marginally distinguishable, anyway) seem to go in for this “every man for himself” kind of thinking. It’s the in-groups versus the out-group, us vs them. The liberal message is much more along the lines of “we’re all in this together”.

The conservatives see this as a time where they have to dig in and prepare for the worst, rather than pulling together to get out of a hole. Pulling together would be helping the “others”, and you can’t do that.

America might even be a better place to live and watch our grandchildren grow up.

Personally, I think that America is a better place to live today than it was two years ago, even in spite of the current economic trouble.

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