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RE: Creationist nonsense

Comment a comment by scottb, published on 29 June 2009
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People usually quote theories by the dozen, many contradictory of one another.

Hm. Let’s clarify terminology a bit. The word you mean is “hypothesis”, not “theory”. In science, a “hypothesis” is a testable conjecture. A theory is a tested and accepted body of knowledge.

Gravitation, evolution, and quantum mechanics are theories — which is to say that they’re well tested, thorough explanations of a set of phenomena.

The National Academy of Sciences puts it this way:

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time.

The basic epistemology of science is such that supporting evidence improves confidence in an explanation, but it can never eliminate the possibility of an alternative. When scientists start talking about a “theory”, they generally intend to mean that it’s an explanation that’s so well established that the possibility of an alternative is too remote to take seriously.

Since a vacuum is void of everything ‘it’ cannot be or become unstable.

This is incorrect. We’ve already mentioned the vacuum fluctuations — they’re not a “hypothetical” scenario, they’re a demonstrated fact. The vacuum is unstable.

Further; the “high probability that it will make the transition to the something state” is without foundation because even in a laboratory nobody has made “nothing” transform itself into “something.”

That doesn’t mean we don’t have very strong evidence to believe it possible.

No laboratory has ever produced the element Ununseptium, which is the name for a theoretical atom with an atomic number of 117, and it’s not known to occur naturally. But, atomic theory gives us very strong evidence that it’s possible.

We have created atoms with atomic numbers of 116 (Ununhexium) and 118 (Ununoctium) in the lab. They’re very unstable. Uuh has a half-life of 63ms, and only three atoms of Uuo have been detected, but they fit into the periodic table (a theory of how certain elemental properties interrelate). The same theory predicts the existence of Uus.

Similarly, vacuum fluctuations are a fundamental part of the theory of quantum mechanics. They’re necessary to explain lots of laboratory phenomena — including three of the four most fundamental forces in the universe (electromagnetism, and the strong and weak forces within the atom), and most physicists (except the ones working on very far-from-the-mainstream hypotheses) expect that thee fourth force, gravitation, will also eventually be explained in these terms.

We don’t have to create the Big Bang in the laboratory to know that it happened — observations of the universe all support the theory. The Nobel Prize in Physics for 2006 was awarded for the COBE experiments, for example. The Big Bang theory predicts the existence of a very small amount of background radiation spread throughout the universe. The difference between the measured radiation and the predictions of the theory are so small that you can’t even show them on a reasonably sized graph.

Scientific models aren’t just a collection of semi-related ideas. They connect together quite strongly to form a single, unified picture of the universe — from the scale of the bosons and fermions that make up matter and energy up to intergalactic superclusters. Along the way, quantum theory is connected to thermodynamics and chemistry, which are connected to biology and geology, and biology connects to all of the social sciences.

When you look at the areas where the sciences overlap, they don’t contradict, they support. One “end” of the spectrum that chemistry studies are bio-organic compounds, which are so intimately bound up with the biological discipline biochemistry that it’s hard to say to which science it “really” belongs. On the other “end” of the chemistry spectrum, you have structural theories that are so closely connected to atomic physics that you can’t tell the chemists from the physicists.

That’s an enormous body of evidence supporting the theory, so we have very good reason to think it true.

You can see from the foregoing that, although I prefer the “Creator’ option because it is self-explanatory, nevertheless I still check whatever is verifiable.

The “creator option” is a lousy explanation, simply because it doesn’t actually “explain” anything. Or, looked at it another way, it explains entirely too much.

For example, it explains why people weigh about 2% less when they’re on consecrated ground. It explains why you can take two sheets of paper from the same ream, write a bible verse on one and a quote from Shakespeare on the other, throw them both in a furnace, and the one with the bible verse will remain whole and unburned. It explains why, when an airplane crashes, the Christians all survive.

That is, it would explain those things, if any of them were true.

The “creator option” isn’t an explanation at all, it’s nothing more than a demand to stop looking for explanations. If people did weigh less on consecrated ground, “the gods made it so” appears to be an explanation — but the next question any scientist asks is, “How?” Is it a reduction in mass or is the pull of gravity less there? Where does the extra mass go? How does it come back when they leave? But all of these questions will end up answered — there’s no experimenting on the creator.

But, I’ll go one further. You say you “check whatever is verifiable” — I have to say I doubt it. Surely your religious beliefs have some testable, real-world consequences — things that, if true, would indicate that at least some of your beliefs were false. That means those beliefs are verifiable, so have you checked them?

That’s ultimately the structure of rational inquiry. We build models of the world in our minds. The scientific model includes bosons and fermions and their interactions, which we’ve very effectively used to describe physical phenomena. But there’s a constant interaction between reality and the model — the model makes predictions, experiments test them in reality.

If we’re serious about truth, we want to come up with these sorts of tests. The COBE program started with a prediction made from the Big Bang model that the cosmic background radiation would be very uniform — it would be the same in all directions. If the test had shown that the background was anisotropic (that is, that there were different levels of radiation in different directions of space), it would have seriously undermined the Big Bang theory.

But that’s what made it a good test — it could show us where the theory was wrong, so we could make a better theory. The reason that the Big Bang theory is so strong is because it’s survived tests like these. The same is true of gravitation and of evolution.

If we’re serious about truth, we test our beliefs. In practice, that means we try as hard as we can to prove that they’re wrong. If we can show a credible effort at doing so, and our beliefs keep passing the tests, then we have some real justification for holding them.

The history of the last few centuries, though, can be seen as a series of exactly those sorts of tests of religious beliefs. Isaac Newton was a deeply religious man, Copernicus was a priest. That fact that science today has so little interest in the divine is because it tested those theories and they failed.

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RE: Creationist nonsense by wyldeling :: NR6

To clarify, a little. We use the word model to indicate explicitly that we are talking about a simplified version of reality. We do this to make the math easier, and sometimes, if we are real lucky, the models will describe 95-99% of the phenomena. (Newton’s laws of motions fit into the lucky category, as they describe motion at speeds we normally travel at to a high degree of accuracy.) Sometimes, the word model is used interchangeably with the word theory, so you need to ask where the model is applicable and what, if any, experiments confirm its usefulness. (Newton’s laws: speeds less than about 10% of the speed of light) We use the term competing theories to indicate that more than one explanation may be possible, and the current experiments cannot tell the difference. We use the term leading theory to indicate that the theory is currently in the lead, but has not won, when compared to its competition. Usually, in this case, none of the theories describe enough of the phenomena to be considered a good theory, so it indicates that more work needs to be done. Finally, we use the term established theory to indicate that unless something better comes along, the theory is viewed as the correct explanation.

Most theories discussed with the general public are considered established theories, e.g. gravity, relativity, evolution, etc. But, occasionally you will see news blurbs using the terms leading or competing theories. Most of the time, I deal with competing and leading theories, as that is where the action is. While, the established theories act as spring boards for explaining the phenomena that were not included in our models.

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RE: Creationist nonsense by Anonymous :: NR0

I am a creationist and I believe god Is the source of all knowlege the fact that you could think at all is proof of god.
god is love and he is logical he created a logical universe because logic is his nature. he gave people the knoledge to think so they could learn to solve their own problem instead of wait for him to intervene he has more important things to do. also evolution has not been tested all the evidence for evolution can also be used for creation. it is like looking at clouds if you want to see something bad enough you will see it. you can’t prove evolution because it takes millions of years to happen also there are no fossiles of dead animals half way through the evolutionary changes. yes new species do pop out of nowhere in the fossil record but there are no transition fossils. mans desire for knoledge was given by god because he want’s us to learn how the universe works he want’s us to be indepenent but at the same time give him credit where it is due. he wants us to trust him but also be able to solve our own problems. so I believe in god. he may have used evolution but I will need some solid evidence to suport the hypothesis of evolution before I will accept it.
there is no evidence only what you want to see.

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