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RE: Buh-bye

Comment comment by LordDilly on 15 June 2007

The growth of Christianity caused the citizens to focus inward - to look to their "heavenly" salvation, and to ignore their earthly problems. Instead of sending their sons to the army, they hired barbarian mercenaries, who eventually decided that they'd rather be giving the orders than taking them.

This isn't the first time you've made that assertion, so I decided to look it up.

Reasons for the fall of the Western Roman Empire (the Eastern, or Byzantium lasted until the sack of Constantinople in the 15th century):

    • Decay-- "But the decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the causes of destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident had removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight.... The victorious legions, who, in distant wars, acquired the vices of strangers and mercenaries, first oppressed the freedom of the republic, and afterwards violated the majesty of the purple. The emperors, anxious for their personal safety and the public peace, were reduced to the base expedient of corrupting the discipline which rendered them alike formidable to their sovereign and to the enemy; the vigour of the military government was relaxed, and finally dissolved, by the partial institutions of Constantine; and the Roman world was overwhelmed by a deluge of Barbarians."
    • Christianity-- "Although the path from Pagan to Christian Rome had a few more hurdles, it was from the time of Constantine that Roman Christianity is dated. At this early point, however, the emperors retained the power to appoint bishops. Over time, Church leaders became influential and took away power from the emperor. Christian beliefs conflicted with the working of empire. "
    • Vandals and Religious Controversy-- "Roman citizens living outside of Italy identified with Rome much less than their Italian counterparts. They preferred to live as natives, even if this meant poverty, which in turn meant turning to those who could help -- Germans, brigands, Christians, etc."
    • Leadership Problems-- "Because the East survived when the West collapsed, institutional weakness and barbarian invasions, conditions common to both halves, are insufficient explanation for the Fall of Rome. Instead, Elton says the cause of the Fall of lies financial difficulties only the West faced. The best single explanation would be poor leadership rather than military failure."
    • The Dole and Barbarians-- "Millions spent on bread (including pork by the end of the second century) and circuses for the non-working poor. Barbarians ruled Rome and even when a Roman, Diocletian, regained control, he was influenced by the East. With Constantine came a barbaric Christianity and the move of the Empire's center from Rome to Constantinople."
    • Economic, Military, Gradual-- "economic (lack of circulating currency and trade deficit, and other factors not clearly economic, like environmental change and decaying infrastructure), military (citizenship granted to all reduced the incentive to join the army), and gradual transformation (it never fell or fell to Islam)."
    • Economic - Hoarding and Deficit-- "One of the primary catalysts to the deterioration of the economy was the lack of circulating currency in the Western Empire. Two reasons for the lack of funds are wholesale hoarding of bullion by Roman citizens, and the widespread looting of the Roman treasury by the "barbarians". These two factors, coupled with the massive trade deficit with Eastern Regions of the Empire served to stifle the growth of wealth in the west"

But you're right, it was probably just Christianity.

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RE: Buh-bye by scottb :: NR7

That list wasn't intended to be a laundry list of forces that were probably involved. It was a list of various historians' theories. So some historians suggest "decay", some suggest Christianity, some leadership problems, and so on.

Christianity is a common thread in them - half of them do note a strong connection with the rise of Christianity. Some of the others simply haven't taken the next step of concluding that the proximate cause they identify was itself caused by the religious issues. "Leadership problems" is a cop-out, and could easily mean the exact same thing as the "Christianity" item lists.

I agree - the detailed causes of the fall of the Empire are complicated. I think it's preposterous to believe that Christianity didn't have a major influence. The Empire's history is early Christianity's history. Christianity was invented a mere century after the Empire came into being - less if you believe Jesus was a historical figure and date it from his alleged birth. The Empire thrived for a few hundred years.

The standard date given for the end of the (western) empire is September 4, 476. One of the most notable dates in early Christianity was in 313, when Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, legalizing Christianity and ending the persecution of Christians under his predecessor, Diocletian. It was Constantine who summoned the first Ecumenical Council, the Council of Nicea - that council wrote the original Nicene Creed, a sort of Christian "pledge of allegiance", which (after a couple of edits) most Christians still recite today. I could (unfortunately) probably still recite it entirely from memory.

So, Christianity came to real temporal power in the mid 4th century with Constantine, and the Empire tanked a century later. As Christianity grew more powerful, the Empire grew less powerful. When Christianity succeeded, the Empire failed.

Of course, correlation doesn't prove causation. It could be coincidence. It could be that there's some third factor that caused both the rise of Christianity and the fall of the Empire. It seems less likely that the fall of the Empire caused the rise of Christianity - the Empire was still pretty healthy when Christianity came to power. I think, on the whole, to dismiss Christianity as being a significant cause of the Empire's misfortunes is intellectually dishonest.

Also, you might throw this into the works... over in the thread on Fox News, we had some discussion about media bias. Historians are traditionally biased positively towards Rome and negatively towards the medieval period that followed it. This is probably because the Romans were such wonderful record keepers and those damn medievals didn't leave them enough material to work with. And, of course, the entire western world was biased in favor of Christianity (at least until relatively recently).

Given a bias both towards Rome and towards Christianity, might it not be likely that many historians simply under-emphasize the role Christianity had in bringing about the fall of the Empire?

Frankly, I don't care whether people accept that Christianity is what hurt the Empire - at least for the purposes I brought it up (both here and the other time you mentioned). My real point is that when people start talking about "moral decay" and the fall of the Empire and then try to draw analogies to the US, they're almost inevitably getting the facts wrong.

As I pointed out more carefully last time I mentioned this, the historian who's responsible for the "moral decay" theory of the fall is Edward Gibbon, in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, one of the first important works on the subject.

Most people who mention the "moral decay" theory want us to think that it's Hollywood, or Vegas, or the sexual revolution that's indicative of this decay. They want us to make the mental connection between "moral decay" and the Bacchanalia, those famous Roman orgies.

But the "moral decay" Gibbon was talking about wasn't the Bacchanalia - that was much more typical of the Roman Republic, not the Empire - it was "civic virtue". He basically said the Romans got soft and lost their "martial spirit". They didn't want to serve in the army, which led to the army's reliance on mercenaries. It was those mercenaries who ultimately deposed the emperor.

I stand by what I said. Our "moral decay" isn't Britney Spears, it's the neo-conservative destruction of America's real values. They concentrate on reminding us we're "one Nation, under God" and try to make us forget that we're "one Nation, with liberty and justice for all".

Posted 15 June 2007, Hide, Parent, Reply
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RE: Buh-bye by gnifyus :: NR7

Many of the eloquent reasons that you found and listed seem to just boil down to the real underlying problem that Rome developed due to its sheer size. Rome became so large that ultimately it was unable to communicate with itself in an effective manner, and so eventually one hand didn't know what the other was up to. We don't have this problem of communication anymore, as can simply be witnessed by the existence of this website alone.

Posted 18 June 2007, Hide, Parent, Reply