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Overall 2008 debate winners?

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RE: Apples and oranges

Comment comment by guyvia on 04 April 2007

True, but Bush could not choose how the white house is built, and he had quite a bit to do with how the Crawford house was built. Let us be straight: Bush is a country boy. He loves the outdoors, and loves nature. Unfortunately, he doesn't love science, and doesn't believe in global warming.

Gore needs to 'eat his own dog food'. If you go about saying there is a need for change, you damn well better be walking the walk. Yes, he is saying we as a group need to emit less, but when claiming that you need to take a leadership role - that is, after all, a large part of 'leading a movement'. Buying carbon offsets does not make him practice what he preaches - that slaps in the face the poor man that cannot afford indulgences or a Prius. If he wants to make a statement, stay under the limit and buy indulgences anyway, so that you can prove that you are reducing emissions.

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RE: Apples and oranges by scottb :: NR7

Buying carbon offsets does not make him practice what he preaches - that slaps in the face the poor man that cannot afford indulgences or a Prius.

First, I'm entirely sick of the mis-characterization of carbon offsets as "indulgences". I can name at least two fundamental ways in which carbon offsets differ from papal indulgences.

Number one - neither the people buying nor the people selling the indulgences had any evidence that they actually worked. A carbon offset is literally the removal of a certain amount of greenhouse gas from the air.

Number two - indulgences weren't connected to any kind of economy. They allowed an already wealthy clergy to further line their coffers with the money of the gullible. There was no limit to the amount of indulgence that could be sold. Carbon offsets, being connect to physical actions, are a limited resource. They move the pain to where the injury is.

If there such a place as Purgatory, and the god responsible for it actually honored those indulgences to reduce the time spent there, indulgences wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

Calling carbon offsets "indulgences" is another red herring argument, attempting to draw attention away from the real issue.

Furthermore, you act as if carbon offsets are completely out of question for the average consumer, something only available to very wealthy men like Gore. A one ton carbon offset can be bought for less than $20. The average American house can be completely carbon neutral through nothing more than offsets for less than $400 per year.

If he wants to make a statement, stay under the limit and buy indulgences anyway, so that you can prove that you are reducing emissions.

Um, what limit? There's not some guideline that says "an American home should emit no more than 20 tons of CO2 per year".

You talk like he should live in a double-wide just because he's from Tennessee or something.