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by Is the torch relay a shining symbol of the purity of the Olympics worthy of our respect, or is it merely a shameless political tool that deserves to attract protests? This report by an Australian journalist puts it into perspective and describes the event in San Francisco. It is worth reading the source for its Aussie rhetorical style alone, but in case the link is transient I will paste the most pertinent part here.
The idea that prior Western Olympics have been held by virtuous nations is laughable. The modern competition was invented by Baron de wossname as a way of inculcating the military virtues he thought French youth needed in the wake of the nation's 1870 defeat at the hands of Prussia, and most of the modern pageantry was invented by Hitler in '36.
In '04 it was held in the US when they were running a brutal colonial war in the Philippines, '08 happened in Paris, despite their gulag of concentration camps in Algeria, Antwerp got it despite the Belgian Congo, Berlin, Moscow, Mexico City say no more – and in 1956, Australia had been helping the Brits in a brutal colonial war against Malaysian independence, counting Aborigines as fauna and testing a-bombs on them. After that it got better - the international organisation was run for two decades by Franco's minister for Sport. Yeah, you wouldn't want China to lower the tone, for chrissake.
What a fine example of journalistic balance! Equally offensive to all nations especially his own. The 1956 (Melbourne) Olympic Torch was the subject of a prank worthy of the Chaser. So should we be sensitive to the feelings of the Chinese who are desperately trying to make a success of the '08 Olympics for us - and themselves - or should we praise the current, and as we have now seen traditional, attempts to rub their nose in their own iniquities?
I am inclined to the latter.
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I find it hard to believe any of the protesters care much about "preserving the purity" of the Olympics. (It's a sporting competition and if a nation is allowed to participate in it, I don't see why there would be a (moral) problem with them hosting it.) Rather, they have simply coordinated themselves to gain the most media attention. Hopefully things work out accordingly (i.e., the Olympics are still held in China and all of the news coverage has a positive effect on Chinese human rights policies/actions).
Absolutely.
However, I still think that the American concern for civil rights in China is mostly about hampering its industrial system with higher wages and better working conditions so that its goods will be more expensive and we will have a chance to compete with them.
Overall, I think China hosting the Olympics is a very good thing, It is a small but significant step out from behind the iron curtain. I also think that the torch protests are valid and appropriate.
Ideally it would be better (cost effective and productive of highest achievement) for the Olympics to be held in one place where it is: safe for all nationalities and religions; warm with clear weather and very little pollution; there are excellent facilities; a demonstrated capacity to organise it, and the population is crazy about sport: i.e. Sydney.
However, I still think that the American concern for civil rights in China is mostly about hampering its industrial system with higher wages and better working conditions so that its goods will be more expensive and we will have a chance to compete with them.
We have to be concerned about this situation. The demise of manufacturing in the US in one major factor that has brought about the current serious decline in our economy. We (as a whole) produce nearly nothing in terms of exports; our Trade Deficit jumped nearly 5% in one month from January to February 2008. Combine this with the weak dollar, and the fact that Japan, China and the Oil Exporters hold nearly two-thirds of US Debt; and we are on the serious brink of disaster.
I'm not just looking at this data either. The Trade Deficit, weak dollar and US Debt are certainly part of it, but our economy is fueled by debt. Everywhere you go, you're encouraged to buy with 'no payment for x months' or '0% financing' . Nearly every store has someone sitting there trying to get you to sign up for a credit card. Houses, cars, and major appliances are all purchased on credit; our consumer debt (as of June 2007 was nearly $2.5 Trillion. Consumer debt is now becoming the next area where people are merely 'walking away' from their debt; much like people have done with the Sub-Prime housing loans.
Our homes were our biggest economic 'investment, but in the current market, I know people that have been hard hit who now have houses worth less than the principal on their loans--even where I live some are very close; with slim margins in equity. Combine that with the fact that we have yet to see a bottom in the fall of housing prices; rise in consumer debt defaults, rise in business debt defaults (three airlines in one week) and the other pressures on our economy, and it's easy to see that we're ripe for a serious economic disaster.
I'm not an expert on economics; I merely listen to those who are. Some are predicting the complete demise of the US Economy, ala Argentina in the 90's. I hope that's not the case.
However..as to the Olympics and protest... Tibet is the proverbial 'thorn' in the side of China. They're one case (of many) of Chinese Human Rights violations that the world tends to ignore until the Media trots it out under our collective nose. The world pays lip-service to the problem, then the media finds something new (Paris Hilton wearing no panties at some event) and our attention to these problems goes away. Granted, there are certainly other problems in the world that also demand our attention--HIV, Malaria, literacy, poverty--that we also ignore. It's time to stop.
Yes. You are right that our economy is in a dangerous situation fuelled by debt.
I think that our concern about human rights is sold overseas on the basis that we are a caring nation that hates to see the peoples of other lands treated badly. I could not reconcile this with the harsh beliefs of some of out nerds who were discussing this issue on this site until one of them revealed his motivation. Then it all made sense because self interest is always a strong runner.
However, I think that hope is forlorn. The Chinese are not only harder working and willing to put up with more hardship, they are also smarter (look at who wins the prizes in science and engineering at college) and more willing to save before buying, than we are. So they will continue to trump us in manufacturing even when they are a liberal democratic society.
I am not an economist either but I tried to get a discussion on this under another thread I showed there the basic theory that savings is one of three ratios in a zero sum equation governing the economy. We can tolerate a poor savings ratio if our trade and tax/govt. spending ratios are in good shape. Unfortunately now they are not, and the zero sum means that the economy must deteriorate at an accelerating pace. Perhaps the new administration will be able to do something about this but, since there has been no discussion of possible solutions in the campaigns, that seems a remote possibility.
It must be acknowledged here that much US debt is owned by China and therefore that country will be badly affected by a collapse of the USA economy if they can't shed it before we go down. When they start panic selling their US investments the slippery slide will really start for us.
Many of us suspected that the golden age of the USA was probably only going to be the second half of the 20th century, and that the age of China would follow. I think that the USA has the resources to remain a rich nation in the longer run but the collapse of the economy will cause the wealth to change hands. It won't only be the people who are in debt who get wiped out but also those whose savings and investments are destroyed by the stock market crash and the falling dollar.
There is really nothing that we can do to protect ourselves. This crisis needs talented national leadership - who you gonna call?
There is something you can do about it. Educate people and change people's attitude in the country. The current attitude of America is 'enjoy life to the fullest'. There's nothing worng with that, if our world was utopia. But since it is not, that means while we are still in the race for the top, even when we are at the top.
while we are still in the race for the top, even when we are at the top.
In manufacturing we are a long way down from the top and will probably never get much higher. Our manufacturers deserve this in a way since it was mostly their desire to produce things more cheaply overseas that led to those countries learning how to beat us.
Education will help us to understand what is happening to us and it may even help us to claw our way back a little but it won't save us.
Back to the Olympic torch, the subject of this thread.
Surely it will never travel again outside the country designated for the games? It is an appropriate symbol to attack, and too good an opportunity to miss. This time it has made us much more aware of Chinese Atrocities in Tibet, Africa and at home, and less happy about that country becoming an emblem of sweetness and light for the Olympics. For that we are grateful.
Propaganda has always been important for dictatorships, particularly communist ones. I am sorry for athletes who have worked up to a lifetime peak for these games, but we should not have allowed the IOC to take us To China.
Sending hundreds of AK 47s and land mines to Africa to help Mugabe remain in power was just too much. America should be educated enough to see that.
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Moral Equivalency by LordDilly :: NR8 :: on 10 April 2008
Yeah, you wouldn't want China to lower the tone, for chrissake.
Sooo ... the author thinks the world hasn't changed in the last hundred years? That because all of the world's nations have skeletons in their closet it means people living today in 2008 are hypocritical for protesting the human rights abuses of China? Because of mistakes made by our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers we, their children, are supposed to turn a blind eye to the evils of the world?
RE: Moral Equivalency by Occams :: NR6 :: on 10 April 2008
Not at all. The way I read it he was encouraging protest by showing that there is nothing sacred about the torch or the motives of the countries who try to use it to gain respectability.
RE: Moral Equivalency by Occams :: NR6 :: on 19 April 2008
I have changed my mind about supporting China hosting the Olympics.
This incident and this has changed everything for me.
If China thinks it can arm a genocidal megalomaniac bastard like Mugabe and then play the friendly host to the world, it is quite wrong. China must be taught that there will be a serious impact on the willingness of most nations to play along.