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How Much of Written History Is True?

Cup blog (coffee shop) by smcbride on 03 June 2007, tagged as history

Just because it is written doesn't make it true. History is traditionally written by the victor, who bends the truth. Nearly every event in the past has at least two sides to the story, depending on who you ask. Is there truth in written history, or is it just written opinions which change with time?

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Absolutely! by Occams :: NR6 :: on 04 June 2007

The usual reaction to this is that there are the facts and there are the interpretations of the facts.

Even the recording of the facts can be biased, and this version can prevail for many years. For example there is a one sided witness account of the Roman conquest of Gaul because the Celts were not into writing their history. We have a very detailed account from Julius Caesar who was not only a great general but also one of the most literate people of his era. His facts are indisputable and this was classical history until recently. Given time, and modern academic technique, Historians have built on this and other sparse sources to flesh it all out and develop a realistic history of this period that is unflattering to the great man, and certainly not Roman propaganda.

Our accounts of World War II from war reporters, propaganda, the media, Hollywood, and even from veterans certainly give the impression that America won it, and the other participants on the Allied side were peripheral. However, a fair interpretation of the contribution of the British Empire from 1939 to 1945 might conclude that those countries did more to secure the final victory than the United States.

Regardless of that, most now agree that the war was actually decided on the Russian front where the majority of the fighting took place. The American contribution was probably most unambiguous in the Pacific, but even there the threat of Russian forces moving in was a major factor in the collapse of Japan - possibly even more so than the atomic bombs.

However, it is the American War of Independence that is most interesting in this respect. We tend to have a very distorted view of what it was about and why it panned out the way it did. But it was our war, and the rest of the world seems to be happy for us to bathe in our delusions.

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RE: Absolutely! by smcbride :: NR6 :: on 06 June 2007

Even the recording of the facts can be biased, and this version can prevail for many years. I agree with your assessment, I remember a American history class that the teacher told us that General Lee was a hero and that General Grant, Sherman and the like were the bad guys. Both of my sons, after being educated up north said American history was taught totally opposite of what they were taught in there Texas high school classes.

When I talk about Texas history with my hispanic friends at work who were educated in Mexico, they have a totally different view about the Alamo. I guess history has many sides depending where you live and what sources you use. It takes many sources, time and research to get an accurate view of the pasted.

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RE: Absolutely! by Occams :: NR6 :: on 06 June 2007

Agreed. It now appears that modern academic research and peer review can overcome the problems of victor (or victim) bias and get to the truth. This takes some effort, and it is often easier and more comfortable to believe the version that most appeals.

As you say, North and south beliefs regarding the civil war are a good example.

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Sniff Sniff ... something's burning. by VnutZ :: NR8 :: on 14 June 2007

... the teacher told us that General Lee was a hero and that General Grant, Sherman and the like were the bad guys.

It is just sin to declare Sherman a bad guy!

What's really sad is that despite more than a hundred years of progress, a repeat of Sherman's March to the Sea today wouldn't really result in mainland America "missing much".

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RE: Sniff Sniff ... something's burning. by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 14 June 2007

I don't know.....I thought Grant drank too much.......and General Lee was a gentleman.

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RE: Sniff Sniff ... something's burning. by smcbride :: NR6 :: on 14 June 2007

What's really sad is that despite more than a hundred years of progress, a repeat of Sherman's March to the Sea today wouldn't really result in mainland America "missing much".

For an educated person you sound ignorant, I am sure all the WWII Vets from the south appreciated your view! It's nice to hear from people who are appreciative and know why they are free. Before you mouth off, I know Sherman was in the Civil War, but it was WWII that gave you your freedoms.

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RE: Sniff Sniff ... something's burning. by VnutZ :: NR8 :: on 15 June 2007

For an educated person you sound ignorant, I am sure all the WWII Vets from the south appreciated your view! It's nice to hear from people who are appreciative and know why they are free. Before you mouth off, I know Sherman was in the Civil War, but it was WWII that gave you your freedoms.

The fact that WWII vets live in the south has nothing to do with anything. South Carolina and Georgia (of which I have lived in both) offer virtually nothing intellectually stimulating and barely economically stimulating to the US. Rather, the states serve as a continued stain on racism and the continued progression of a redneck gene pool. That WWII vets live there is irrelevant. I owe my freedom to my WWII POW grandfather on the Bataan Death March. He resides in the Republic of Texas.

So I stand by my statement. South Carolina and Georgia could burn down and aside from an exceptional few outliers ... the United States wouldn't miss much. Heck, national public school performance averages would increase by losing those two states!

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RE: Sniff Sniff ... something's burning. by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 15 June 2007
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RE: Sniff Sniff ... something's burning. by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 16 June 2007

Let's not let the racist bigots who made that video divide us.

What this country needs is decent hardworking loyal Americans. We have all come from somewhere else over a few generations. Why not Mexico. They have a valid point about the history of Texas. We took it.

We can afford to absorb the good ones and our lives will be enhanced as these people become prosperous and productive. Texas could use the rise in average IQ.

If those who are here want to become valuable citizens then fine, let them stay and do it. But we should kick the other bastards out as quickly as possible.

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RE: Sniff Sniff ... something's burning. by PatternsOfChaos :: NR4 :: on 21 August 2007

They have a valid point about the history of Texas. We took it.

There is a very fundamental flaw in this sort of thinking (the denial of territorial rights with regard to territory obtained by conquest).

First, a slight correction: Texas actually wasn't taken - Texas declared independence from Mexico on it's own in 1836 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_of_1836), which sparked the Mexican-American War, that was ended by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo where Mexico ceded most of the rest of the SouthWest to the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guadalupe_Hidalgo).

But if we dismiss the legitimacy of obtaining territory by conquest, what legitimacy is left, frankly?

You would have to give up the British Isles - a few times. Most of Europe would be gone. And let's not forget about the Roman Empire...

Hm - as I re-read your comment, I see that it's just a bad troll. I probably shouldn't respond (and I will leave the rest of your nosense alone) - but that particular argument is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, you could say.

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RE: Sniff Sniff ... something's burning. by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 16 June 2007

Let's not let the racist bigots who made that video divide us.

What this country needs is decent hardworking loyal Americans. We have all come from somewhere else over a few generations. Why not Mexico. They have a valid point about the history of Texas. We took it.

We can afford to absorb the good ones and our lives will be enhanced as these people become prosperous and productive. Texas could use the rise in average IQ.

If those who are here want to become valuable citizens then fine, let them stay and do it. But we should kick the other bastards out as quickly as possible.

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RE: Absolutely! by PatternsOfChaos :: NR4 :: on 21 August 2007

However, a fair interpretation of the contribution of the British Empire from 1939 to 1945 might conclude that those countries did more to secure the final victory than the United States.

I would like to hear more about this particular contention, given that my mother actually lived through WWII in Dersingham, Norfolkshire, England - and to hear her tell it, the Allies wouldn't have stood a chance without the USA

Whatever may be written, or later interpreted, there's not much that can top a first-hand account of history. How can we be sure this interpretation isn't some sort of revisionist history to downplay the contribution of the US?

I'm not even arguing the point - I just want to see something to back the contention.

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You can only believe half of what you see. by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 06 June 2007

Police say eye wittiness are usually useless. When watching the news or reading a history book, I always question the so called facts. I think this method of input from different tangents helps bring out the truth. I find that events that happen during your life are more believable and easier to understand and retain. People who speak with all knowing authority scare me. I think this site brings out different views and is very healthy.

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uh, sorry to be a troll, but... by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 14 June 2007

www.google.com

define:historiography

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Truth in history by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 16 June 2007

There is the saying: "If you want to study history, first study the historian."

This would suggest the premise of this subject as stated by smcbride is correct. Written history is mainly just written opinions.

One of the most glaring examples of subject matter that seems applicable to this theory is war.

The written history of the Vietnamese war (with US) documents this phenomenon. To date, schools all over the US fail to address with any depth the controversy and differing viewpoints of what that war was all about.

What is currently written about the "war on terrorism", specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq, continues this trend. Who knows how history text books will depict this.

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RE: Truth in history by Occams :: NR6 :: on 16 June 2007

The Vietnamese have no doubts what they call the "American War" was about. I am sure their schools will teach their version thoroughly.

I suspect that the Iraq War as it is now will not feature prominently in either American or World history. It has no glory, heroes or big battles to make it interesting. It will probably be seen as an unequal struggle of ideals, and America throwing its post cold war muscle around. It will be the main achievement of the W Bush administration, or perhaps the frustration of it.

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TRUTH by REDBONEATL :: NR2 :: on 25 June 2007

TO ANSWER THIS INQUIRY WE MUST ASK FOR A SPECIFIC TIME FRAME. I HAVE FOUND THAT WRITTEN HISTORY HAS BEEN BIASED. HISTORICALY , HISTORY WAS PASSED ON THROUGH VARIOUS CULTURAL VEHICLES ie. STORYTELLING, MUSIC, DANCE, RITUALS, ART,ETC. ARE THESE INCLUDED AS VALID MEANS OF ACCURATE INFORMATION DISTRIBUTION. IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA IF EXAMPLES WERE GIVEN OF HOW WRITTEN OPINIONS HAVE CHANGED WITH TIME.

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None....... by Anonymous :: NR0 :: on 27 July 2007

of it.

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RE: None....... by Brandon :: NR9 :: on 27 July 2007

What about this?

On July 27, 2007, a comment was posted on OmniNerd the title of which was "None......."

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There are true opinions and writings by davidcgore :: NR4 :: on 03 August 2007

This is a curious question. I don't think the answer is a matter of quantity. We should ask, not how much of history, written or otherwise, is true, but what kind of truth, or truths, does written history provide? What are the qualities of historical truth?

In the ancient world history was a minor branch of rhetoric. (Rhetoric now, of course, is a minor branch of communication - the harlot of the humanities, while history is sacrosanct.) Which is to say that everyone knew that the writing or speaking of historical truth was a persuasive enterprise. As a matter of argument the truths history yields are never, ideally, objective, "scientific," or pure. Instead, they are human: best when contingent, ironic, and interesting (just like real people). No one wants to read a boring story of the past. Or one that cannot move. And, to be a good historian (as in student of history), one must know how to read.

So we may wish to reframe, too, the other points. History is more often traditionally written by historians, many of whom are employed by the victors. Some of the best, though, is written by vanquished historians or even disinterested historians. And because history is rhetorical there will always be at least two sides to every historical event. The way to judge is by understanding the quality of arguments. There is truth in written history but that truth should never be thought of in contrast to written opinions, for opinions can also be true as they are a matter of judgment and argument. (e.g., I am of the opinion that people should live within their means.) Finally, because history is rhetorical that means it is contingent or time-bound: just as past events in a person's life take on new meaning as they age so too historical events take on new meaning as the times change. So history is a changing just like the times.