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A Talk on Latter-Day Saints' View of Modern Day Revelation

Introduction

Joseph F. Smith, a modern day prophet in the early 1900s, made a simple statement concerning the belief of our church in revelation. He stated, “We believe… in the principle of direct revelation from God to man.”1 It sounds simple – there is a truth or principle that involves God communicating to man, and we believe in it.

But there is much disagreement in the world concerning this principle. In fact, I think you could very well divide out every church based on how it chooses define revelation. What is this principle of revelation? What is revelation? What teachings are included in it? Does such a supreme being exist to give revelation? Does that being have sufficient interest in the human family to warrant giving revelation? Does that interest include love and concern for the welfare of the human family? There is a string of questions covering just about every other principle of the gospel leading from how one defines this principle of revelation. Elder Smith didn’t attempt to answer all of these questions – he simply asserted that we believe in the TRUE definition and content of revelation.

He knew, for a fact, that revelation happened because he was a prophet chosen by God to represent Him on this earth and lead His church. He knew not through scripture reading or studying Greek and Hebrew, but through actually receiving revelation. It is interesting that the only way to know of yourself if revelation is a true principle today is to receive personal revelation.

Those who have questioned the principle of modern-day revelation and then actively sought an answer through in faith in Christ, study, and prayer, can witness to the frustration sometimes involved. But, more importantly, if they have endured and received that answer they have learned much more. They then know for a fact that a loving Heavenly Father exists and he speaks to His children today. This is revelation.

What is Revelation?

Revelation expresses an uncovering or a disclosure of that which had before been wholly or partly hidden – the drawing aside of a veil – the making known of a divine truth by communication from the heavens. Revelation is NOT the ‘creation’ of truth. Revelation is simply the Fountain of All Truth uncovering part of what is real.

Revelation is an integral part of not only obtaining our potential to return and live with our Heavenly Father, but it is essential to know that we even have that potential and by what means we can obtain that potential. If you compare our lives here on earth to a race, it would be silly to expect any contestants to finish if they didn’t know how to run, or where to run, or even if there was a race to finish… Without revelation from our Maker, we are similarly left in the dark, wandering without knowing our purpose. We can read of past ‘races’ and learn valuable lessons, but what about today? Do I compete in this race the same way those in past races have? Do they even have races to compete in anymore?

Importance of Modern Revelation

While the Christian world may agree as to the existence of revelations in times past, modern day revelations are consistently challenged and denied.

Latter-day Saints bear testimony to the world that God lives and that he reveals His will to those who believe in Him and obey His commandments, as much in our day as at any time in history.

Joseph F. Smith, taught the following concerning modern day revelation:

“The gospel cannot be administered, nor the Church of God continue to exist, without it. Christ is the head of his Church and not man, and the connection can only be maintained upon the principle of direct and continued revelation. It… is a living, vital principle to be enjoyed on certain conditions only, namely – through absolute faith in God and obedience to his laws and commandments. The moment this principle is cut off, that moment the Church is adrift, being severed from its ever-living head. In this condition it cannot continue, but must cease to be the Church of God and, like the ship at sea without captain, compass or rudder, is afloat at the mercy of the storms and the waves of ever contending human passions, and worldly interests, pride and folly…”2

Simply put, God’s Church cannot exist without revelation from Him. What is God’s Church – but an organization He sets up through revelation to teach His people of His will for them? Any church not based on this principle, while teaching good and important truths, would not be God’s Church but man’s church. God’s church is the church HE sets up to lead us to him, not the church WE set up to try and get back to Him.

Famous examples of churches gone astray because they are not based on continuing revelation from God are rampant in the scriptures. In the Book of Mormon, the Zoramites erect towers on which they would praise themselves and their chosen status all the while rejecting the existence of a Savior. They were acknowledging God and doing what they thought would qualify them to live with Him again. In the Old Testament, people built the Tower of Babel in an attempt to climb to heaven. They also acknowledged God and they worked really hard to do what they thought would lead them back to Him. In the New Testament, the Jews followed their church’s teachings to the letter, their motivation being to get back to God. All three groups were doing the wrong things while claiming a righteous goal. The cause? They refused to accept modern day revelation. Instead of seeking out the church that God established to lead them back to Him, they sought to establish their own church and follow their own methods. Through God’s recorded reactions to all three situations, it is obvious this is NOT the way he wants things to work. It must be frustrating for our Heavenly Father to establish a plan for us to learn of truth and return to Him, only to have us pick another way all the while claiming that we are doing it because we want to please Him.

Any person who denies the need for continuing revelation is making a gross over-estimate on the amount of knowledge and light that we have concerning God’s will for us. In effect, they are saying they don’t need any more truth – which is ridiculous. Are they aspiring to instruct God on what truths need to be revealed and when? It may sound outlandish, but when anyone denies modern day revelation, a similar claim is being made.

On the American Continent just six years before the birth of Christ, a Book of Mormon prophet taught concerning this same principle:

“Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time. And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out. Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.”3

This is the state of mind that the people of the world have. People in the times of Christ read the scriptures they then had and were almost certainly ashamed as they read of the stubbornness and pride of the Israelites being led out of Egypt. They must have thought to themselves, “Those fools! They survived multiple plagues through the grace of God, witnessed the parting of the Red Sea, got free food outside their tents every non-sabbath morning, saw water come forth from a rock, and then they choose to die rather than follow their living prophet, look at the raised serpent staff and live?! What were they thinking?”

I know what they were thinking. The people in Moses’ time were thinking the same thing the scoffing readers in Christ’s time were thinking as they stoned the prophets, persecuted the saints, and continually rejected Christ. The world learns easily to accept the teachings of ancient prophets, but has always met the truth of continued revelation from God with skepticism and disbelief. Thus, the unbelievers in Christ’s time look back and find it difficult to understand how the people of Moses could be so blind, just as we look back and think the same thing of them. This is ironic when you think about it. Which was more important to the people in the time of Christ – the truth revealed to Noah on how to construct an ark? Or the truth being then revealed to them through prophets of the coming of the Savior? There is much to be learned from the prophets of old, but the rejection of the revelations given specifically for us would be a gross error. Thus, as Samuel the Lamanite said, although we may scorn at the apparent stupidity of those of old, “[we] are worse than they…” when we follow the recorded revelation and reject present day revelation.

James E. Talmage taught:

“It is at once unreasonable, and directly contrary to our conception of the unchangeable justice of God, to believe that He will bless the Church in one dispensation with present living revelation of His will and in another leave [His] Church… to live as best it may according to the laws of a bygone age. True, through apostasy the authority of the Priesthood may have been taken from the earth for a season, leaving the people in a condition of darkness with the windows of heaven shut against them; but at such times God has recognized no earthly Church as His own, not any prophet to declare with authority ‘Thus saith the Lord.”4

That authority to receive revelation and speak in the name of the Lord exists today in this church, Christ’s church, as the power of the priesthood. This priesthood was revealed in the time of Adam, the time of Moses, the time of Christ – in every dispensation when Lord’s Church was on the earth. The authority to receive revelation and direction from God was – interestingly enough – received through revelation from God.

Talmage continues:

“Revelation is essential to the Church, not only for the proper calling and ordination of its ministers, but also that the officers so chosen may be guided in their administrations – to teach with authority the doctrines of salvation, to admonish, to encourage, and if necessary to reprove the people, and to declare unto them by prophesy the purposes and will of God respecting the Church, present and future. The promise of salvation is not limited by time, place, or persons.”5

Peter assured on the day of Pentecost:

“For the promise is unto you and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”6

Why is Revelation?

The revelation of God to His children is a direct consequence of His love for us. Through being worthy to receive, recognizing, following revelation, we can know and follow the path leading to eternal life. Revelation is part of the plan established by our Heavenly Father to lead us back to Him. By denying revelation, we not only ignore Him, but we effectively label Him as not loving us.

The benefits of accepting and following modern day revelation given through modern day prophets is the same today as it was in Christ’s time and in Moses’ time. The same God seeks to teach and lead through prophets, scriptures, and answers to prayers. Without these, there is no means for us to know of His will for us, to feel of His love, or to even know of His existence – NO WAY for us to return to Him. With these principles of modern day revelation, the opposite is true: We can know of His existence; we can know of His will for us; we can feel of His love, and we can return to Him.

Closing

James E. Talmage succinctly and powerfully bore testimony of revelation and the restoration of the Church of Christ in these latter days. He taught:

“We can but imperfectly respect an authority whose very existence is a matter of uncertainty with us; therefore, if we are to implicitly trust and truly revere our Creator, we must know something of Him. Though the veil of mortality, with all its obscurity, may shut the light of the divine presence from the sinful heart, that separating curtain may be drawn aside and the heavenly light may shine into the righteous soul. By the listening ear, attuned to the celestial music, the voice of God has been heard declaring His personality and will; to the eye that is freed from the motes and beams of sin, single in its search after truth, the hand of God has been made visible; within the soul properly purified by devotion and humility the mind of God has been revealed.”7

1 Smith, Joseph F. Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. (1939), 104–5.

2 Ibid.

3 Smith Jr., Joseph (translator). The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Helaman 13:24-26.

4 Talmage, James E. The Articles of Faith. Deseret Book Co, June, 1981.

5 Ibid.

6 King James Version. The Holy Bible. Acts 2:29.

7 Talmage. The Articles of Faith.

Information This article was edited after publication by the author on 11 Dec 2008. View changes.
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LDS issues by willwaddell
The Christian world does not have an issue with modern day revelation per se. The problem comes from the nature of LDS revelation. The Christian community would also find someone preaching from the Harry Potter books suspect, as both of these constructs are equally fictitious. The groundwork of the LDS movement is undeniably shaky and this undermines the validity of LDS revelation. First we ask ourselves, where is the evidence of this tribe of Israel that somehow came to North America? The current Native Americans, their supposed progeny, have no genetic link to any Semitic peoples and Native American language is completely free of Semitic origin. Christianity also casts a nervous eye toward the LDS church because of various beliefs that have been held at one time or another. Polygamy obviously comes to mind, but the notion that men may achieve some sort of demi-god status is dangerous as well. Various elements of LDS thinking are strangely reminiscent of Gnostic or Marcion error of ages past. In that respect, the Mormon church is creative, but not necessarily entirely original. Finally, Christianity must reject the LDS teaching because Joseph Smith chose to emend the Bible as he saw fit throughout his life, based on this ongoing “revelation.” Let us not forget John’s warning of Rev 22:18-19: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. If that is not enough then perhaps Paul Gal 3:15 (NIV) will suffice: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! I do not presume to say that faith can be proven by history, or genetics, but some things are clearly untrue and can be established as such.
Mark: You mentioned some common issues people have with the LDS faith. Your claims are worth thought, but they aren’t proved, and my thoughts have led me to disagree with all of them. We could really get into the validity of the names used in the Book of Mormon, genetic links, polygamy, eternal progression, Bible ‘amendments’, and the rest – but, I wasn’t meaning this to be the beginning of an all out ‘is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints the true church?’ discussion. I was hoping to philosophise about a particular issue, in this case – the nature and purpose and need for revelation (the principle, not the book). I’m interested if you think that God communicates to man differently than I’ve described. Do you have particular issue with any of the points that I talked about in the article? How do the issues I discussed compare with the beliefs of your own religion?
Brandon, Here are some of my thoughts as I read your article. I think what you said makes logical sense, but it demands that one take the teachings of the LDS church as truth. I don’t believe the teachings of the LDS church to be God-sent, but I’ll put that aside for the remainder of my comments:

>In your article, with regards to modern day revelation, you stated:
>Any church not based on this principle, while teaching good and important truths, would not be God’s Church but man’s church.

I don’t follow how this can be true. If the Bible is a book that contains a compilation of revelations from God to man and we accept it as a valid source, then how can teaching from it be seen as "man’s church?" The cities that God frowned upon were certainly not teaching the word of God from the Holy Bible.

>You quoted Joseph Smith as saying:
>"Christ is the head of his Church and not man, and the connection can only be maintained upon the principle of direct and continued revelation."

Then what about the approximately 2000 years between Jesus and Joseph Smith? Was the head of the church turning His back on man? I’m not entirely familiar with the LDS church. Do you recognize prophets from within this gap? If not, how do you explain this discontinuance of revelation?

>Later you say:
>The world learns easily to accept the teachings of ancient prophets, but has always met the truth of continued revelation from God with skepticism and disbelief.

While this is true, I haven’t rejected the LDS church simply because it’s recent. The LDS church just doesn’t make much sense to me and many of it’s teachings seem flawed and many of it’s teachers/prophets don’t seem credible. The reason for belief is present in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament. I don’t see it in any subsequent writings to include those of the Muslim faith (which is derived from an "ancient prophet") as well as the LDS church. I view the Book of Mormon much like I view the Quran. Yes, it’s an interesting and well-written book and generally good in nature. No, I don’t believe it to be sent from God through revelation.
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trying to keep up by Brandon
First, I mistakenly addressed that one post to Mark. It must have been the ‘Mc’ and the ‘B’. Sorry about that. Next, there are a lot of things to say in response to what has been posted. I don’t think I’ll be able to continue to get on here and post every day, but I will try to keep up. Misunderstanding of the LDS faith is rampant, so I think discussions like these are important.
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illogical path by Brandon
McFall: Just for clarification – The LDS church uses the King James version of the Bible, with portions of the Joseph Smith Translation included in the footnotes and appendix. Also, the LDS faith regularly studies this version of the Bible and holds it as one of the ‘standard works’ of the gospel. On to the issue – You have commented on how the Bible got to where it is now, but that does not really address the issue. While, in your eyes, the changes to the Bible may not be significant, they are, nonetheless, changes. To reject the Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible purely because it is not the Bible version that you hold dear simply does not make sense because the version you have contains changes as well. I presume the real problem you have has something to do with the authority of Joseph Smith to produce the JST and the content of the JST. If you want to pursue a conversation over those things, then it would make much more sense. But, to dismiss it simply because it is contains "changes" would be hypocritical.

On to the issue – You have commented on how the Bible got to where it is now, but that does not really address the issue. While, in your eyes, the changes to the Bible may not be significant, they are, nonetheless, changes. To reject the Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible purely because it is not the Bible version that you hold dear simply does not make sense because the version you have contains changes as well. I presume the real problem you have has something to do with the authority of Joseph Smith to produce the JST and the content of the JST

Arguments about the content of the Bible were rampant in the early centuries of the Church and, to some extent, remain even today. The issue was always which books were “canonical” and therefore deemed worthy to be part of the Scriptures. The internal text itself was hardly ever at issue. As I said, soon following the deaths of the original apostles much speculation began over the content of Christianity. The so-called Gnostic Gospels are the clearest examples of this kind of literary fabrication. Gnostics, steeped in the eastern tradition of allegorical interpretation, did not accept that the accounts of the apostles were to be understood as literal fact and not subject to the common allegorical understanding. To further their cause and explain their concept of gnosis, they began producing additional texts written exclusively to justify their position. The same is true of Marcion, who tried to reduce the New Testament to just the Epistle of Paul and the Gospel of Luke. Marcion’s activities were immediately condemned and his work discarded. These attempted errors, no matter how prevalent, did not effect the actual Gospel that came to be known as the Bible. By the second century we know that Tertullian spoke of the “New Testament” and defended it against Gnostic heresy. The Old Testament was subject to much less contention due to its long standing. In any event, by the fourth century, at the request of Pope Damasus, Jerome compiled and translated the accepted books. His effort, meant to quell the repeated attempts to alter the true Word of God, produced the Vulgate, which was passed on until such time as the myriad controversies subsided. My point is that the true Word of God has existed, untainted, since the time of the apostles. And that those very apostles warned us against those who would seek to undermine, alter, or delete anything from that Word. Men will always try to contemn God, but their efforts will fail. I do take specific issue with Joseph Smith and his alteration of the Bible. The illegitimacy of the LDS church in toto challenges his right to dabble in the Word of God, although we should remember that the Book of Mormon is a more striking example of his skill in fiction. Changing the Bible to suit one’s purpose is commonplace really. The Jehovah’s Witnesses did the same in order to remove verses that confounded the basis of their belief. Perhaps you are right though. The real issue does have to do with Joseph Smith’s authority to change the Bible and record other “revelations.” That issue seems fairly cut and dry. The inconsistencies in the LDS church history and in the stories purported by Smith impugn his credibility from the start. Many men have claimed to see angels or speak to God, as Valerie mentioned. Joseph Smith’s supposed experience was not original, feasible, or true. I wish we could speak to Oliver Cowdery these days. It would be nice to know why a man who supposedly saw an angel of God invest Joseph Smith with the leadership of His church would abandon that church later on. I also wonder how this man, who I remind you reportedly saw the angel of God, misinterpreted Joseph Smith’s right to take many wives. I guess Cowdery must have slept through that part of the “revelation.” That’s too bad, considering Cowdery was the scribe for most of Smith’s literary efforts. LDS later attempts to rework this embarrassment are extremely facile.
I believe that the revelation that Brandon is searching for was annulled with the introduction of the Holy Spirit upon Christ’s death and resurrection. During Christ’s last supper with his 12 disciples in the upper room, he told them “…It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” (John 16:7) Just as the Jewish tradition of animal sacrifice became irrelevant with God’s ultimate sacrifice, so became the concept of the “Booming Voice” of God communicating only with a select number of prophets. The introduction of the Holy Spirit (Counselor) upon Christ’s death and resurrection enables God to live, work and communicate with all the peoples of the Earth versus having to pass on His will and His word to the masses through a chosen few. St. Peter furthers this position with his speech to the 11 and the crowd during Pentecost as recorded by St. Luke in the book of Acts: Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38-39) St. Peter declared that ALL who repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. God did not limit His gift to the religious leaders of His church or a select number of prophets, but rather the Holy Spirit was bestowed upon all of those who lift up the name of Christ, regardless of age, race, sex or nationality.

If you compare our lives here on earth to a race, it would be silly >to expect any contestants to finish if they didn’t know how to run, >or where to run, or even if there was a race to finish…

Of course it would be silly to expect a runner, or any athlete for that matter, to complete a competition without a clearly defined set or rules, standards or direction. Fortunately, God left us two distinct and incredible tools to aid us in our journey (race, if you will) through life: his Word as it is written in the Holy Bible and the Holy Spirit as I discussed earlier. Again, during his last supper, Christ promised the 12 disciples: When he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. (John 16:13-15) Christ promises that the very same Spirit St. Peter guarantees to all who are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ will lead, guide and direct us in His way, and that the Spirit will make Christ’s will know to all who believe. This guidance, coupled with the Word of God, makes for a pretty clear cut set of standards and objectives in our “race” through life.

While the Christian world may agree as to the existence of >revelations in times past, modern day revelations are consistently >challenged and denied.

Is this a bad thing? I believe that it’s human nature for men to be suspect of that which comes from the mouths of other men. After all, we’re all human and we recognize that we’re sinful and imperfect as such. If we didn’t scrutinize or analyze the “revelations” of other men, what would prevent any lunatic from fundamentally changing the church by claiming revelation for the sole purpose of satisfying his or her own personal wants or desires? What about Mohammed or Buddha? Certainly they have attracted a large following for their purported revelations? Why is Joseph Smith’s revelation from God any more “right” than Mohammed’s or Buddha’s? The fact is that the Truth will stand up to such scrutiny just as Christ’s Truth has endured over 2,000 years or constant trial and tribulation. This argument falls along the same lines as willwaddell’s debate over the Bible. When is it acceptable to alter/add to the world of God that He has so expressly forbidden us to do in a variety of passages in both testaments? Why should we accept the LDS’s JST Bible and Book of Mormon while rejecting Islam’s Koran?

Simply put, God’s Church cannot exist without revelation from Him.

You’re right! However I believe that the “revelation” you’re looking for is the quiet voice of the Spirit of Truth inside of each and every one of us guiding us in His way. I believe that God left us with all the help we could ever want when made his new covenant with us through the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ; and that his Word will forever light our way. The days of the “Booming Voice” and prophets are gone because we now enjoy—as have all Christians enjoyed over the past 2,000 years—the Spirit of Truth that lives and works within each and every one of us.

Except for your assumption that the influence of the Holy Ghost and revelation from God to prophets are mutually exclusive. Where do you see that in any of the scripture you quoted?

I never said that the influence of the Holy Ghost and “revelations” from God to men are mutually exclusive. What I have a problem with is the Mormon belief in “revelations” from God to men that fundamentally change the Christian Church by contradicting what God has already revealed to us through the authors of the Holy Bible. To use your terminology, “if His Truth never contradicts itself,” why would He go back and “revise” His revelation through Joseph Smith? That’s like claiming that God got it wrong the first time around. As I said before, we, as Christians, have two tools that work together in guiding us though life: the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible. In order to discern between revelation and heresy, we must use these two tools together. This is the reason the Bible debate becomes so critical. If we agree that the Bible can be freely amended, than we have no safeguard against heretics and false-prophets from fundamentally changing the Christian faith in the name of “revelation” in order to satisfy their personal whims and fancies. You continue to claim that there are an infinite number of revisions and translations out there; however you have yet to specify what they are and how they differ fundamentally from the widely accepted KJV (to which the Mormon Church subscribes) or NIV. The only real debate over various versions of the Bible, that I am aware of, is limited to grammar and syntax issues, and which Books are canonical. I’m not going to delve any further into the Bible debate because I feel that willwaddell already adequately covered this topic.

Christ continued to communicate to his prophets and apostles after His resurrection. This only stopped when the people became too wicked.

Where in the world do you get this?!? When did Christ stop communicating with his “wicked people?” The apostle Paul writes in Romans that: …all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This says, to me, that we are all “wicked,” but that we are also saved by the grace of God through faith in the blood of His son, Jesus Christ. Christ’s blood was, is, and will forever be the world’s ultimate redemption. Claiming that Christ turned His back on His “wicked people” is like claiming that God went back on His promise of redemption. God, speaking through Moses, commands us to “not be afraid or terrified…, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you” (Deuteronomy 31:6). I don’t see a qualification in there about cutting off communication if people “become too wicked.” I just don’t understand where you derive the basis for this claim.

Which one is God’s church? Please don’t say more than one, because that would be just plain silly as we all know that God does not have more than one version of truth and that His truth never contradicts itself.

Christ declares in Matthew 18:20 that “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Christ has made it clear that any assembly in His name receives His blessing. I’m not sure I understand your attempt to distinguish between “God’s Church” and “Man’s Church.” There is no such thing as a perfect church here on Earth. We have already established that we ALL “have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” Because our church here on Earth is composed of and led by sinners, it is inherently flawed. I do not believe that there is a single denomination within the Christian faith that God has singled out and blessed with “His Church” here on Earth. If that was the case, wouldn’t that particular church have to be led here on Earth by a perfect (sinless) individual? This is impossible since we all know that the ONLY sinless individual to walk the Earth was crucified and resurrected over 2000 years ago. Because of this inherent flaw in “Man’s Church,” I believe that we must continuously pray for God’s grace and blessing, have faith in His redemption and forgiveness, and seek His guidance and reformation within our church.

Never [with regards to amending the Bible]. Seeing that such alterations/changes have already taken place, however, would it not benefit to change it back?

Again, I challenge you to show us where and how the Bible (we’ll say the KJV since it’s obviously a version we agree on) has been significantly altered over the past 2000 years.
Although the discussion here has been very interesting, and many good points have been made on both sides, I feel that the issues of Mormonism and Christianity within this discussion have been blurred, and that a similarity has been implied that is false in every way. From reading the posts it could seem to a casual observer that we are discussing the differences between something as similar as Baptists and Methodists, when actually these points of view are as different as Baptists and Wiccans. Even the similar terms we use are different in meaning. Although my list here could continue for many pages, I just want to give a brief illustration of the very real differences in the fundamental beliefs between Mormonism and Christianity. Let’s begin with terminology: BIBLE LDS – The Bible is correct only as far as it is correctly translated. It is basically trustworthy. It is the only one of the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) that is not considered infallible. The KJV is the official Bible of the LDS church. Bible – the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16). CHURCH LDS – The LDS church with its organizational structure, laws, and proper name. Bible – The body of believers in the true and living God through Jesus. It is comprised of those who are redeemed and is not limited to an earthly structure. ETERNAL LIFE LDS – Exaltation (exaltation to a Mormon means obtaining Godhood) in the Celestial Kingdom. Bible – Forgiveness of sins and life eternal with God (John 17:3; Rom. EXALTATION LDS – The state of becoming a god in the celestial heaven. Bible – No such thing as becoming a God in the Bible. FALL OF MANKIND LDS – A blessing (Mosiah 3: 11-16). A necessary step in the progression of humanity to the level of Godhood. Bible – The open rebellion of Adam and Eve against God resulting in their condemnation and the fall of mankind. GOD LDS – One of countless gods in existence. An exalted man from another world who created the earth who’s name is "Elohim." He became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on the other world. He has a body of flesh and bones. D&C 130: 22-23. Bible – The one and only God in all the universe, (Isaiah 44:6,8). GOSPEL LDS – The laws and ordinances of the Mormon church. Bible – The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of the sins of all who would trust in Him (1 Cor. 15:1-4). HOLY GHOST LDS – "A spirit man. He can only be at one place at one time… " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.) The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on. It is likened to electricity." D&C 130: 22-23. Bible – Third person of the Trinity. Same as Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4). HOLY SPIRIT LDS – The presence of God as distinguished from the Holy Ghost who is a god in the mormon trinity. Bible – An equivalent term to Holy Ghost, third person in the Trinity. JESUS LDS – Literal offspring of God the father. Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Ordained as the Christ in the pre-existent Grand Council before coming to earth. Bible – Jesus is God, second person of the Trinity (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). PRE-EXISTENCE LDS – We existed in heaven with God our (literal) Father and mother before we became human. Bible – We did not exist before we came to earth (1 Cor. 15:46). SATAN LDS – The opposer of God, literal son of God, brother of Jesus and all people begotten in the pre-existent spirit world. Bible – A fallen angel who rebelled against God. SCRIPTURE LDS – Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price. Bible – Bible only TRINITY LDS- Three gods: a god called the Father; a god called the son; a god called the Holy Ghost. Bible – The one and only God in all existence who is comprised of three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. See Trinity. From these differences in terminology it is obvious that some very core beliefs differ greatly between Mormonism and Christianity. Now let’s look at some doctrinal beliefs: Topic GOD Mormon: "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3) Christian: There is only one God (Isaiah 43:11; 44:6,8; 45:5) Mormon: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345 Christian: God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15) Mormon:"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s" (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10) "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38). Christian: God is a spirit without flesh and bones (John 4:24; Luke 24:39) TRINITY Mormon: The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.) Christian: The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three, eternal, simultaneous person: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. JESUS Mormon: "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115) "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547) Christian: Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23) Mormon: Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation. (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15) Christian: Jesus is the eternal Son. He is second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17) THE HOLY SPIRIT Mormonism distinguishes between the Holy Spirit (God’s presence via an essence) and the Holy Ghost (the third god in the Mormon doctrine of the trinity). "He [the Holy Ghost] is a being endowed with the attributes and powers of Deity, and not a mere force, or essence (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 144) Christian: The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is not a force. He is a person. (Acts 5:3-4; 13:2) This is only a sampling taken from http://www.carm.org/mormon.htm. It is not my own work, but the shortest and most concise summation of what I would like to present. So when we discuss the differences between Mormonism and Christianity, perhaps we should agree on which definitions we will use. The fact the Mormons believe that God was once a man on another planet, has a wife (goddess), has a body with skin and bones and with that body had sexual relations with Mary (whose virginity must now be questioned), to bring about Jesus (who eventually married and had children too) who had to die so that we would have the opportunity to work our way to become gods too, makes it clear that Mormonism is not Christianity by any stretch of the imagination. The differences in definitions and doctrine make that clear. The very essential aspects of both are not shared: they don’t share the same God, they don’t share the same Jesus, and they don’t share the same plan of salvation.
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my first comment by RyanDK
Will and Brandon should play an online, best of five, game of checkers. Whoever wins obviously has the uber religion because their God wouldn’t want to "get served" in checkers. Anyway, it’s Christianity for me because one of the books of the Book of Mormon is called Moroni (that’s way to close to Moron to be a coincidence).
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Last Post by gary.s.s.

Before I see the need to prove the Book of Mormon and the rest of my beliefs through the Bible, you must first prove to me how it is God’s ‘established covenant’. … How is it established when even those you group together as ‘Christians’ do not agree as to it’s content? … I see no reason to limit my arguments to the contents of the Bible because you incorrectly claim it is all that is valid.

OK Brandon, for the last time: Any Christian debate/speculation regarding the Bible is strictly limited to simple syntax and grammatical issues. The New Testament (I am going to skip the Old Testament since the Jewish community was/is renowned for their incredibly strict and disciplined translations of the Torah) of the Bible was written in Greek by the disciples (contemporaries) of Jesus less than 100 years after His death and resurrection. While we do not possess any of the original documents, approximately 6,000 copies exist today that were made within 100 years of the writing of the original manuscripts (roughly 150 A.D.). The almost 6,000 original copies of the original manuscripts are almost identical (99.5%) to one another, and to the Bible that we know today. “If you take that 1/2 of 1% and examine it, you find that the majority of the "problems" are nothing more than spelling errors and very minor word alterations.” (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry). Don’t you think that with the distribution of so many copies in such a short period of time that any changes would have been identified immediately and labeled as false and contrary to the word of the Lord? Furthermore, whenever the Bible is translated into a different language, the Greek manuscripts have always been/are always used in order to prevent error through multiple translations. The resulting product is a book that has been passed down over the past 2,000 years with an unparalleled accuracy to which even skeptics and theological critics will attest.

How is it a covenant when you deny that any ‘Christian’ churches have the authority to act in God’s name?

A covenant is a contract between two parties…it is not an instrument through which one receives authority to act in another’s name. Interestingly enough, “Testament” is Latin for “covenant;” therefore, in actuality the Bible is composed of the Old and New “Covenants.” God’s New Covenant is His promise to us of grace through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ. God’s New Covenant is a promise of salvation through Jesus Christ, not a contract to act in His name.

Those attributes are found very easily in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is very established in it’s organization and beliefs, and it’s members hold the priesthood – the authority to act in God’s name to perform ordinances whereby His sons and daughters may make covenants with Him.

I turn to the Apostle Paul: “As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one” (Romans 3:10-12). St. Paul makes it pretty clear that not one of us is worthy of God’s love and salvation…let alone worthy of “making covenants with him.” Fortunately for us, St. Paul doesn’t stop there. He continues in Romans 3:21-24 “a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Christ was “conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary and became man” in order to die on the cross so that we might enjoy God’s grace through FAITH in the Blood of His Son (notice there is no mention of works…”On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law (Romans 3:27-28)). Through Christ and his sacrifice, we, as Christians, have also received an “intercessor” through which each and every individual who has faith in the redeeming power of the Blood of the Lamb enjoys a personal and intimate relationship with God (as opposed to the Jewish tradition of the priesthood limiting contact with God to a High Priest). Christ’s death and resurrection eliminated the necessity of an established priesthood similar to the one to which you continue to refer. St. Paul clearly states in his letter to the Hebrews that “we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.…Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need” (Hebrews 4:14-16). Furthermore, St. Paul makes it very clear that Jesus is the ONLY high priest (specifically a High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek since your “cult” claims that men can also become Priests of that Order) when he states that “For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever” (Hebrews 7:28). St. Paul makes it pretty clear that the oath (“The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You [Jesus Christ] are a priest forever.’ " (Hebrews 7:21)) supersedes the law, and that the oath “appointed the Son” (not “the Son and members of the Mormon Church”). Accordingly, the Mormon “Priesthood” is clearly in defiance of God’s established word and covenant.

I have defended my beliefs through establishing their legitimacy within God’s established covenant, and I will continue to do so. I see no reason to limit my arguments to the contents of the Bible because you incorrectly claim it is all that is valid.

I refer to my previous discussion. Of course you see no reason to limit your arguments to God’s established word and covenant since it is clearly discredits your “religion.”

…but you cannot use these scriptures to say that anything outside of the Bible is void. The meaning is not there.

I don’t think it gets any more black and white than Proverbs 30:6. Joseph Smith was quickly revealed as a liar and has been spurned and rebuked for the last 150 years. It’s only a select group (cult as defined by most of the world) who continue to cling to his falsehoods.

If such arguments were used against Christ by the mainstream religion of His day, the Jews, would you expect them to be valid? To repeat my question, how can differences from the mainstream religion of the day be construed to be falsehoods?

Christ’s death and resurrection is clearly in fufillment of the prophesies contained in Old Testament (or their Torah). Therefore, the Jews of Jesus’ time had no case against Jesus just as Mormons have no legitimacy today (I don’t see any prophesies in the New Testament referring to Joseph Smith or a “revised” covenant between God and man to come at a later date).

The LDS church has stood firm in it’s beliefs while mainstream ‘Christianity’ has fought amongst itself as parts began to embrace the ways of the world.

I direct you (and the reader) to www.carm.org and www.exmormon.org for an extensive and articulate listing of the sundry Mormon “flip-flopping” that has occurred over the past 200 years…Polygamy, African-Americans in the church, The Book of Abraham just to name a very very select few.

I have answered this question numerous times. I know the Book of Mormon is true because I have read it, prayed about it, and felt an answer through the Holy Ghost.

Why do you need to pray about the Book of Mormon? St. Luke states in Acts 17:11 that “the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Notice that St. Luke says that they EXAMINED the scriptures; they didn’t PRAY for personal revelation from the Holy Spirit. St. Paul explains to Timothy that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). St. Paul challenges us to read and study the scriptures because he is confident that they will stand up to our scrutiny. Interestingly enough, he also states the scriptures are useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training (hmmm…sounds like the general theme of these posts). While you pray over the Book of Mormon, I rest confidently in the knowledge that the Bible is God’s word and that “He will rebuke you and prove you a liar” when you “add to his words.”

I asked for your reasons to believe that the existence of modern day prophets is impossible (refer to my previous post for completeness).

For the last time, I do not necessarily believe that the existence of modern day prophets is impossible. What I do believe is that modern day prophets are not going to prophesy in direct contradiction to what God has already given/instructed us in the scriptures.

I claim that they were in apostasy because they did not have authority to act in God’s name (the priesthood)

So Christ’s death and resurrection was in vain??? As I’ve already established, God made it clear that through death, Christ became our high priest. Therefore, we’ve had an intercessor to act on our behalf for the past 2000 years! Why do you need a “priesthood” when you can go right to the ONLY “High Priest?”

Are you claiming that feeling the Holy Ghost is not dependent on righteousness? Was Hitler just as ‘in tune’ as Luther?

St. Paul (the former Saul of Tarsus), the greatest evangel to walk the face of the Earth, wasn’t exactly the biggest supporter of Christ and Christianity (how I suppose you (as a Mormon) classify righteousness although we’ve already clearly established that “there is no one righteous, not even one”) when God spoke to him… (Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem (Acts 9:1-2). This is my last post on this topic. I direct Brandon and the reader to www.carm.org and www.exmormon.org. Both of these sites have much more articulate and concise biblical responses to EVERY issue Brandon raises in his posts and article than I could ever hope to produce in my limited scouring of the Bible. The contributors to these sites truly have the LDS Church’s number. These sites will explain Mormon beliefs, why they are incorrect, and will even go so far as describe the Mormon counter-arguments to the Church’s arguments and will explain how their counter-arguments fail as well. The exmormon site is extremely enlightening given that it was built and is maintained by ex-Mormons who have received “true revelation” from the Holy Ghost and recognize the LDS church for the farce that it really is. I do have to thank you, Brandon, for strengthening my faith in my Christ through our dialogue. I also thank you for more fully educating me on the LDS church. Before I thought that at least Mormons were in the ball park in their belief in Christ; now I fully realize that we worship a separate God (or Gods in your case) all together.

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